Ep. 2 – Badass Boundaries
COMPOSURE authors Kate Purmal and Joshua Isaac Smith join host Drew Tweedy in a conversation about Badass Boundaries. In this episode, we discuss the wide-ranging benefits of establishing strong boundaries, especially in our work lives. But is it always so simple? Joshua and Kate get into a great conversation this week, discussing the ways in which we must navigate our boundaries to best serve ourselves and the other people in our lives.
Below is a transcript of the episode, edited for clarity.
Read Understanding Emotional Boundaries: The Key to Owning your Superpowers — The COMPOSURE Blog ➞
Drew Tweedy
Hey, everyone, and welcome to The COMPOSURE Podcast. This week we're talking about Badass Boundaries, those physical, emotional, and spiritual tools we use to honor our needs, form healthier relationships, and help us become better, more badass versions of ourselves. A lot of the ways we're used to thinking about boundaries is in our personal lives with our family, friends, our partners, but something really powerful about boundaries is that they're actually applicable to all aspects of our lives. And that can be especially useful as you build your career and navigate challenging work environments. We're gonna get into all of that and more today. So let's just dive right in. We're joined today by the very people who coined the term Badass Boundaries, COMPOSURE authors, Kate Purmal, and Joshua Isaac Smith. Hello to you both. So let's just start from the top and set the stage, can you give us a common example of where boundaries can be a challenge for people?
Kate Purmal
Yes, I'll give you an example of what we hear commonly with the executive women we work with, particularly those who also have families at home. So they have these competing and dual demands on their life. One common boundary is where they get assigned work, that they the only way they can complete it is by doing it over the weekend. So their plates already really full. And then something drops in, that they're asked to complete. And it means that they end up working nights and weekends. And they're really not willing to do that. But they don't know how to push back and manage their boundaries so that they can create a sustainable and manageable work life.
Drew Tweedy
Yeah, it sounds like a really unhealthy work dynamic, but one that a lot of people can understand. So, Joshua, given that context that Kate just brought up, what are Badass Boundaries? And in that context, what might a Badass Boundary look like?
Joshua Isaac Smith
Well, Badass Boundaries, I mean, the whole idea I've been working with for quite a while, and particularly in the workplace. Because there's a real drive to want to succeed, there's a real drive to want to please our boss, and to look good among our team. And to do that, we tend to over function we take on so much work — high performers in particular. So that scenario of people taking work home over the weekend, and being expected to do it is a perfect example. Because a Badass Boundary is an opportunity to actually take a stand for something very powerfully important for us as individuals.
Essentially, a boundary separates us as individuals from others. And there's a term called individuation. And that's the ability to literally be able to respect our sense of who we are as an individual.
And then in from a from a historical psychological perspective. You can see in the terrible twos, for example, for people who are parents, and in child development, that's where individuation starts. So the boundary actually starts when the two year old first time they go no to that to their parents to the to the shock and chagrin of the parents. But it's, it's it's really the opportunity that the the infant needs to be able to, to forge their own path and to be able to experiment with being curious and, and exploring and these kinds of things. So in the workplace, if we don't have that ability to actually take that stand, that bold stand, for ourselves, then there's a tendency for this to lead to work related burnout, to anxiety, to depression. I mean, the cost of the inability to be able to say no, which is what a Badass Boundary allows us to do, to what we don't want and yes to what we do want. But that inability or that struggle to say no to something, even if it's to oneself, no, I can't do this, because this weekend, I've got too much on and I need to prioritize my own well-being or I need to make sure that I go on that walk in the mountains or something like that. Because the struggle is that we are easily enmeshed into each other's lives, and we take on other people's issues.
And that's essentially just means we're connected. We're so connected that we can't separate our issues from their issues. And in doing so we lose space for ourselves and this is the number one cause of poor health anxiety stress. So it really does take being a badass to be able to say that no or to, to actually say back off, if we're having a very difficult conversation sometimes and someone's being aggressive to us it in that takes in the badass aspect, which we'll have an opportunity to do later, it takes an even bad or badass to physicalize, that movement to literally put the hands up. Yeah, which we'll do later. But, but this is in this way boundaries are because they're invisible. Typically, we don't walk around with a marker that says, this is my space. And it starts here. So please don't come any closer. Right. So it's an opportunity for us to actually realize when we're taking on too much, or to communicate that to our managers that actually, I've got a lot on right now. So what are some of the things that that I could you could help me prioritize, so that so that I don't slip on anything, but also I need to also take care of myself? So having these kinds of conversations is very difficult.
And, Kate, I think you would agree with that. That's one of the major struggles is how to have a conversation about where is it that I'm taking on too much? And how do I say these things to my manager?
Kate Purmal
Yeah, it's not that we're going to start saying "No!" like a two-year-old. We may want to... but the truth is that leadership is all about negotiating priorities, period, full stop. Leaders are constantly negotiating priorities, whether it's how to prioritize the use of resources that they have in terms of funding available for the organization, or how to prioritize how their people are applied to solving problems.
And that is also true, really good leaders get really good at prioritizing their own time and energy in ways that don't sound like no, that sound like you know, I would love to do that I agree with you, it's an important priority. Let me take a look at how that fits against these three other things I'm doing. And let's figure out how to be able to deliver on the most important aspects without given that I'm at capacity.
You know, I think one of the things women have a tendency to do and, and others in the workplace, but those who are at all, feeling insecure or lacking confidence, have a tendency to want to explain why they can't do something. And it has to do with, you know, protecting their own personal time. And they don't want to do that they don't want to reveal that they're actually saying wanting to say no, because they want to rest this weekend. But the truth is, you don't have to, you can simply say you're at capacity. And you'd like to take a look at where this priority fits with other things, and have some support and assistance doing that from the person delegating to you. And that's a really respectful way of saying no, without the fear of possibly revealing that you want to have a personal life, which we all do.
Joshua Isaac Smith
And sometimes, you know, it's more that feeling of, Do I have permission to actually say no? Can I give myself that permission? Maybe? Maybe I'm not even saying it. There are many different ways to say it. But can I feel it? Can I feel that stand for myself? Because sometimes that is what it takes.
Because there's a lot of history around when I didn't say no to the things that I didn't want to do. And I said yes, instead. Yeah, we do that all the time. And it feels as if the feeling is it just doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel like I've been honest with myself, where I've put myself in a situation where I can really feel like I want to do the things I really want to do, I tend to put the things I really want to do to the side, and do what other people want me to do. And this is very common with the term people pleasing.
The exhaustion of that causes because we're always typically in our families and our friends, we're putting other people first instead of putting our own oxygen masks first.
Kate Purmal
Yeah. And Joshua, you said something really important, which is really, which is a breakthrough that happened when I met you. And we started talking about this, which is I tended prior to that, to think about boundaries being something theoretical in my mind. And you just said take a stand and feel and that's really important because the the whole the whole secret to badass boundaries is actually that to feel them and sense them and be aware of them physically.
Drew Tweedy
So I want to hold on a point that you just made because I think it's really profound and it resonates with me. And I think it resonates with a lot of people. You talked about not having or feeling the permission to say no or to enact a boundary in certain situations, especially in work context, why is it so hard for people to feel the permission to say no?
Joshua Isaac Smith
Well, it's a struggle. Well, there's a struggle for certain people. For some people, it is much easier to say no, and these are people that might grow up with a greater sense of entitlement, for example, and they just know what they want and what they don't want. And they're clear on it. And they can say, No, I'm not going to do that, because it doesn't contribute to this and what I'm what my vision is, or that sort of thing.
There is this drive to want to really be connected with others. And this is part by biology, it's very, sort of a phylogenic connection that we have over the years, because we're social animals. To stay connected, we have to stay safe, we have to agree to what the leaders of the tribe tell us to do. And the workplace is no different.
If my leader, my manager, or the person that I need to impress, to be able to get promoted, and these kinds of get accolades and just going to put a name forward, put my name forward for other things, then I actually need to please that manager, and so it becomes highly difficult or highly challenging, to go against that drive to want to please my manager versus look at giving myself that permission to be clear and to be honest. Is this something that I can really do, because I've taken on so much, or I'm doing so much for others.
And that is something that Kate and I have discussed, and with Lee, in our research that impostors really, especially struggle with this. To be able to say, no, because there's a real external drive the high performers focus mostly on external rewards. And really, that is who they are, they are their job, they are their promotion, they are your salary, they are all these things, and they neglect themselves individually.
So it's literally that split between my who I am as an individual, and then who I am as a member of a team or workplace, and the goals are very different. And they can they often come into conflict, my personal goals are one thing, my external goals, that's really, that's what I'm here to do. So I have to really do that I have to do it well, and I have to be for many high performers, I have to be as perfect as possible. And that is, that's a lot of pressure, to have that kind of energy to have to perform. And if I don't perform, then I'm not good or seen in a in a lower light. And I don't want to risk that I have to be someone that is respected someone that is a top performer, someone just by my by my manager or boss, I have to be someone that produces or I don't have value to myself. And that's where boundaries really help to separate that out is right to actually say, Hey, I'm an individual. And the job is the job. I'm me. And somewhere in there is this negotiation of badass boundaries,
Drew Tweedy
Right. And it sounds completely unsustainable to hold yourself to those standards and to work yourself that hard for so long. And it creates this paradox of somebody trying to advance their careers, but really burning out in the process of doing so because they don't have the strength of boundaries to be able to to hold themselves accountable for not overdoing it in the process of trying to advance themselves. Can you guys talk a little bit more about what that looks like in practice where somebody is a really high achiever, but because they don't have sufficiently strong boundaries, they're not setting themselves up to really advance in their careers over the long term?
Kate Purmal
Yeah, let me just make a very important point. When we are asked to do something I know this from being a CEO and a senior executive. When I ask people to do things, it's not that I have typically have an absolute deadline and or mandate. It's that I'm asking them to do this and it so long as they say, Yes, I'm presuming that they have the capacity to do it.
So there's one fundamental piece of information that's critical here, which is that there's this perception amongst impostors and people who lack confidence or fear, criticism and or fear of failure or criticism or sensitive to judgment, that if they say no, that they'll be in trouble, or they will be viewed as less than because they're saying no or, or they won't be treated fairly, right, because they're trying to look good in their boss's mind. The truth is that one of the most valuable and powerful things they can do with their manager that they're trying to please is constantly bring to them their priorities and what they're working on so that they can remain aligned. So in reality, this pushing back is an opportunity for greater transparency around workload and alignment. And it really has nothing to do with whether or not they were they're willing or not to work on the weekend. The question is, what's their capacity? Are they at capacity? Is this putting them over capacity? And if so, how do they prioritize the things that are on their plate in order to make sure they're doing the most important things? That is a very powerful business discussion. And I will say, as a leader, when people push back on me, I would get frustrated, because I needed the insight to help them prioritize if they just said, No, I can't do it, I'm booked, I'm too busy. That was not being responsive to the business because there was no opportunity for discussion, or I'd have to create it, whereby we could examine the priority of what I just asked visa be the other priorities.
Joshua Isaac Smith
So yeah, that's interesting, Kate, because really, it becomes more of a stronger dyadic connection with when you're saying someone pushes back or not in it, but just is able to actually communicate with the manager, these are the things I'm working on, let's align on what's the priority here, because just so I can start to prioritize my time accordingly. That's, that's a really powerful exercise. I've seen that work very well in the workplace. But it does require permission, to be able to, to have that conversation and in essence, manage up and to feel comfortable. I remember mentioned the term to new managers "managing up" and they looked at me cross-eyed, like, I just I just said something in a different language. You mean, you can actually manage up you can actually have conversations with your manager about, you know, that are sort of forceful, but just are clear in what what it is you're working on what it is, your priorities are and making sure that they match. And as opposed to just doing the random things all the time that your manager tells you, and they got that. So that's I think that's a powerful tool. But it does require permission, and it does require boundaries.
Kate Purmal
Yeah. And there was one thing that I want to say about permission. When we all have permission to negotiate how best to do our work with high quality with in this in a time, that's our immune in the time that's allocated or when it's due, right. There's quality, there's timeline, and there's resources, and including our own resource. So a really powerful way to start this conversation, whether you have permission or not, is to say, look, you know, that I'm really committed to high quality work. And I really want to be able to deliver against the time requirements in the business. I'm struggling because my plate is full. I'm at capacity right now. So this request, I need some help prioritizing, so that I can deliver on the work I have with the kind of quality that I you and I expect and within the appropriate deadlines. Can you help me work on that? And that's a way to open up to to ask for not just permission, but to ask for collaboration and support a very, very powerful tool. And it's unusual. I mean, I would think it would be a very, very small percentage of managers that would not be open to hearing that and working with you on that.
Drew Tweedy
You have both been executives. So I'm curious, in your own experience, if you've had people who have worked for you have these kinds of Badass Boundaries and how you have responded when you've had these conversations where they may put up a boundary, but they do it in a really effective way. What does that show you about them? And how has that helped those people advance their careers and put themselves in a better position to succeed in your organizations?
Kate Purmal
I mean, the big thing that that conversation does is it allows me as the leader to set priorities. If I don't know what you're working on, and how you've prioritized things, I have no opportunity to influence that. So when somebody comes to me and says, Hey, here's my top five priorities in order. And I just want to make sure we're aligned with that, did I get these in the right order? Do you agree with this? Most of the time, the answer is yes. But sometimes, the priorities are not aligned with mine.
So by surfacing them and communicating them, that gives me as a leader, a chance to say, you know, what, this number three priority delivering that, that that that paper to the client is actually more important than these other two, because we're about to pitch a new piece of business that you're not aware of. And so it's really important that we deliver this on time and that we, we get that out in front of this new sales pitch we're doing. So usually leaders have a broader context of knowledge in the business. And if they're able to influence priorities of individuals in their companies, they're able to make sure that they orchestrate their resources in a more efficient and effective manner.
Joshua Isaac Smith
Yeah, that's a great example. For me, I really wanted people to step up. And I wanted to see who really had the passion and the vision and who has ideas. So for me, it was realizing that I was looking for people sometimes to push back on some of the initiatives, and not in a not in an aggressive way, but just to make, to refine the vision and to make it more appropriate with, you know, the business, whatever was happening or the industry. And, for me, it was watching someone really speak their truth, and not be afraid of me just as a leader, so to speak, but to actually work with me and more collaboratively, as Kate was saying, that's probably one of the biggest opportunities, if someone does start to have boundaries, that's a person whose real leadership material.
Drew Tweedy
It seems almost counterintuitive, but I do hear it from a lot of people who have been around business for a long time and who have managed other people have been an executive that something that leaders are really looking for all the time is people who will push back on their ideas. And, in doing so, be able to open a dialogue that oftentimes just doesn't exist within these organizations, where everybody can get clear on what the priorities actually are, as you to have both mentioned here, and, and have that chain of command, have a better line of communication so that everybody can be on the same page.
This game of telephone that often happens when goals are set at the top, and then the work actually gets done at the bottom, if people aren't actually communicating their boundaries and communicating their priorities, that gets all out of whack. And suddenly, once you get to the bottom of the chain, the work that needs to get done isn't actually getting done. So it's it's definitely an interesting application of boundaries here.
We've talked a lot about why it's a challenge to not have boundaries, and also why it's a huge asset to both the individual and the entire organization to have these strong, badass boundaries. So I want to end by giving our listeners some sort of insight into how they can help strengthen their boundaries. So so to both of you, what can people do to strengthen their boundaries? And I want to use the example that we started with here, of working on the weekend. So Kate, maybe you can start by talking about what a what a boundary would look like in that situation where the person is asked to work on the weekend, but they really shouldn't. And then Joshua, maybe some examples from your work about tools that that that person could use in order to strengthen that boundary?
Kate Purmal
Yeah, thanks. That's a great question. So that what you just said, even though maybe they shouldn't, I think is the most important piece that we haven't yet talked about. Because what we know to be true, I'm on a board of directors, I'm working with executives all the time. And their top concern today is burnout and retention. So the issue is that when if their employees fail, to protect their time and energy in a way that's sustainable, it's the it puts the organization at risk. I'm working with 50 high performing high potential employees at a very large insurance company. And the thing is, they've been nominated in this program because they are extraordinarily talented, they're being fast tracked into the executive ranks and yet they are working really hard. This, this issue because our high achievers is coming up.
So what we talk about all the time is that only they can sustain their energy, only they can make their work sustainable. If they're constantly working into the evenings and over the weekends, and they burn out, what that usually looks like for a company is they walk in one day and quit with no warning. And they leave the company without anybody to fill their very large shoes, right. So it is absolutely disastrous for a company, when an employee a particularly highly valuable employee fails to manage her or his own work life in a way that's sustainable. So that I think the most important thing is to actually become aware of what is and is not sustainable of what it is you need to thrive, as compared to what would put you over the edge. And that's where Joshua's somatic work is really, really important.
Joshua Isaac Smith
Yeah, thanks, Kate. And so what I'm what you're talking about is really, the ability to have self reflection, the ability to actually look into oneself, and take a moment and just be centered and grounded and present in the body.
So I'd like to just take a few minutes, and then take us all through that. And that's just sitting down with your spine straight, feeling your yourself in the chair, feeling your feet on the ground, and just breathing. And just noticing first, how you're breathing, noticing the muscles that you're using to breathe. Noticing if your breath is very, very quick or shallow, or noticing if your breath is deep and slow.
And we'll all synchronize by just taking a deep in breath through the nose. And now just exhaling through the mouth, just just open the mouth and just exhale. And one more second. In breath through the nose. And out breath to the mouth. Very good.
And now this time, we work a lot in the program in COMPOSURE with the ability to actually use the hands to set that boundary. So really what we're, what we'll do in this next experience is to allow your hands to come up as if two strings or bring your hands up and imagine you're creating a perimeter, like a like a force field around you with your hands. So you are physicalized in your ability to separate out yourself from the other issues, whatever is causing you stress.
And then if you really look at your hands, particularly the back of your hands, just look at the backs of both hands. And notice that there's a certain amount of space between the back of your hands and your body. And then imagine that that space between the back of your hands and your body, that that space is your sacred and safe space. And nothing is allowed inside that space, unless you invite it in.
So just look at the back of your hands. And just imagine that and what's on the other side of your hands, what's more, like looking at your palms are facing your palms are issues or people or things that you don't want to deal with right now, or you want to just get some space from. So imagine on that other side is that ability to actually control how much space you have for yourself. And again, this is your self reflecting now.
Now just if you experiment with moving your hands, the backs of your hands closer to your body very slowly. And notice as they get closer and closer towards your body. What's that like to have that sacred Safe Space suddenly become more and more invisible or less of something that you can actually see it's really close. And imagine this is the permission now. So this is about if you look down at your hands and there's just barely space between the back of your hands and your body. That's about how much permission that we will typically give ourselves if our boundaries are very collapsed. Right, very porous.
Now just push your hands out and away from your body. And imagine so it's the complete opposite and pushing as far as is comfortable extending your arms and just notice what that feels like to create all that space and feel that in your body. Again, this is the self reflective part. This is a somatic aspect and somatic is nothing more than tuning into the felt sense of your body, your feelings and sensations.
Now move your hands in a way, that's more of a sweet spot that feels right feels comfortable on the shoulders, you're not struggling in your arms. But you notice that okay, yeah, I look at the back of my hands, I just noticed that this is about the right amount of space. And imagine that you can actually do that every day, that you can actually physicalize your boundary, and feel that permission, feel that space that room for yourself. And that's the beginning of being able to strengthen your boundaries, a realize you do have this ability to to animate your boundary and to see it. But more importantly, from a somatic perspective, is to feel your boundary. And to have that sense when something is too close or too much to be able to push your hands out and push it away from yourself so that you ultimately have the control over your time, energy, and what you want to do. And that's the ability that really embodies boundaries and the ability to say no to what we don't want. And then yes to what we do.
Kate Purmal
Yeah, and let me just take that into our example and talk about how we can use that. Obviously, when you're in a meeting with your boss, you're not going to put your hands out and in with a gesture of back off. That's how you're going to do that. But you can, you can do it at your your computer. When a request comes in, you can actually put your hands in front of you in front of your screen and say back off and say, okay, that request is out there. I'm going to take I'm going to take note of this sacred space that's my own inside. And I'm going to ask myself, How do I feel about that? Wow, that feels like too much. It's triggering me it's making me upset and anxious.
Okay. What is it that I deserve? Oh, you know, I deserve to have some balance in my life, I deserve to be able to spend time with my family in the evening, and on the weekends and that request... I'm keeping an eye out for a moment, is very likely to prevent me from doing that. It's invading my personal time. And and what do you know to be true? Is another question you can ask with this safe space. And you can say, I know I'm really a valued employee, I do good work. And my boss is compassionate. And actually, I know that my boss probably doesn't want me to burn out.
So I think that it's appropriate and would be welcomed, for me to have a discussion with my boss about my boundaries, because I know that I need that. And I know that my boss doesn't want me to burn out and and get demotivated or stressed or leave. And then you can ask even one more question with your hands there, which is if I were to float out of myself, and view this perspective, from the highest and best good as if I'm on a surveillance camera above the scene, watching this whole scene unfold, and I were a I were really looking at the best good of of me, of the boss, and the company. How would I see this picture? And from that perspective, I would see that it's in the best good for me not to burn out and overwork. And for me to have time to recharge my batteries on the weekend, so I can do my best work so I can be my most creative. So what's in the highest good is for me to work with my boss, to figure out how to navigate priorities to make that happen. That'll be in the best good of me, the best good of my boss, because my boss won't have to replace me in three months when I burn out, and the best good of the company, because the company is going to get the best work out of me. And it's going to have me working with more energy around the things that really matter.
And once you do that, it's really common because what you've realized is that when that your desire to push back is coming from a good place. It's coming from a place of self preservation and sustaining your energy and that it is acceptable for you to go have that discussion and you're ready for it. You're no longer triggered and fearful you're actually able to be more confident and more curious, in order to have that conversation in a really productive way.
Drew Tweedy
I think that's a wonderful place to end and a great way to give our listeners something to take with them into their lives and into their work. And as always, for our listeners out there who want to learn more about COMPOSURE in general and or about boundaries and how you can create them visit composurethebook.com. For more information on the book, the workbook, the blog, all kinds of exercises and guided meditations. All of their work is there. So to Kate Purmal and Joshua Isaac Smith, thank you so much for joining today.
Kate Purmal
Thank you so much.
Joshua Isaac Smith
Thank you.
