Ep. 9 – What’s the Secret to Finding Flow?
In this episode, Gretchen Yanover, Cellist/Composer, dives into her creative process, explaining how she uses personal boundaries and dedicated focus to enable flow. She provides guidance for creators of all kinds, from artists to businesspeople, including:
The importance of making space for improvisation, connecting with yourself, and making life more fun.
The magic of experimentation and finding success by trying new things, learning, and adapting as you go.
The necessity of preparation, practice, and process when doing your work.
Listen to this special conversation, as Gretchen, Kate, and Drew discuss music, motivation, and making meaningful change.
Below is a transcript of the episode, edited for clarity.
Andrew Tweedy
Hey everyone and welcome back to the show. I'm your host Drew Tweedy. If you listen to the show regularly, you know we cover a lot of ground, but mostly talk about business and career. But the show is also really about life in general and forming better relationships with ourselves so we can better interact with the world around us. The lens through which we usually explore these issues is the business world. We bring on brilliant people from leading corporations or nonprofits and we talk shop. But today we're really excited to try something new. And we're actually joined by someone you all already know. At the beginning and end of this and every episode, we play a beautiful song called "Suddenly I Felt Joy", written and performed by the wonderful cellist, Gretchen Yanover. Today, that woman who opens and closes all of our episodes will also join us for the entirety, gracing us with her words in addition to her sound. Gretchen is brilliant, warm, incredibly successful, and she's a true visionary in her field. She performs as a soloist with her electric cello and looping pedal, neither of which I had heard of before, along with her acoustic cello performance and recording work. Gretchen began her musical life in Seattle Public Schools, falling in love with the cello's deep sound. She found her way back to school later in her career, guiding students in music for 17 years, while at the same time growing her own solo performing career. But when Gretchen started playing with a loop sampler, it transformed her musical life, inspiring her to improvise and compose. She has four solo albums to date. You can find all of those albums and support her work at gretchenyanover.com. These days, Gretchen performs throughout the Pacific Northwest as a soloist on her electric cello, while also continuing her classical music life. She's played with the Northwest Sinfonietta orchestra since 1998, and she's a member of the Sinfonietta's DEI taskforce, working to make meaningful changes in the classical music culture, along with creating connections in the community. Gretchen has appeared as a soloist for the Earshot Jazz Festival and presented at TEDx Seattle. She was the recipient of the Shunpike Artist residency and was the Town Hall Seattle 2021 Fall Artist in Residence. As you can tell, Gretchen is an incredibly accomplished musician. But I'm most excited and grateful to talk to her today, because she's a deeply thoughtful person who truly cares about those around her and she's shown profound courage while she's navigated her life and her career. We're going to get into all of that, I'm sure it's going to be a special conversation, so I won't keep you waiting any longer. Gretchen, welcome to the show.
Gretchen Yanover
Thank you for having me, both of you.
Andrew Tweedy
It's great to have you. These two have a really cool story of how they met and it's a really interesting one in general, but it's also really powerful in terms of the effects that it's had on both of their lives. I want to start there, because I think the listeners would find it really interesting. Kate, can we start with your version of the story of how you met Gretchen?
Kate Purmal
Yes. This was such a beautiful moment. So I was going through a really difficult divorce and it was a bad time and I had just gotten off the phone with my soon-to-be-ex-husband and it was a very contentious conversation and I was really upset. Not only that, I was running late for a meeting so I had to get off the phone. I had to end the conversation abruptly. I had to jump in my car and I was trying to race off to my meeting. And I was going up this hill towards the freeway. And wouldn't you know it, I get stuck behind this massive dump truck full of rocks, going like two miles an hour, up this milelong road to the freeway with no way to pass or get around it. And I was just beside myself, I was so upset. I was totally, I was shaking, and I was listening to the radio station in the Bay Area, KDFC, and then this music came on. And within 10 seconds, I was completely transfixed by this music. I forgot about everything else. I completely forgot about being late. I certainly forgot to go about going two miles an hour. And when the song ended, I was noticing that I was looking up at the sky, watching the birds, the hawks swooping down, it was just this unbelievable moment of complete transformation of myself. So I quickly wrote down who the artist was and it was Gretchen, and it was one of her songs called "Suddenly I Felt Joy," which happens to be the theme music to our podcast. I ended up finding her music and reading more about her and how she does her work, ostinato, which she can explain. But I wrote a blog post about it and then I emailed her. I just told her the story and how profoundly grateful I was for her in that moment. That was the start of our friendship and collaboration and all of the above.
Andrew Tweedy
Gretchen, what was it like for you to get that email?
Gretchen Yanover
It was fantastic. I mean, it's amazing to feel like I can connect and have resonance with people I've never met, who have never seen my face. So it's both heartwarming, and it's also very validating, so that's great. I think we had that communication where you shared your blog post, and then I don't know how much later it was that you invited me to perform? Do you remember Kate?
Kate Purmal
I think it was probably within a year or two that I contacted you because I was hosting a retreat for Women's C-Level Executives and I wanted to invite Gretchen to play her beautiful music and also talk about how she does her work. So I reached out to her and to find out if she would do that. She was so professional on the phone and so on and said yes. It sounded like she did this all the time, and she negotiated a great rate for it. She was really branded advocating herself and I'm like, yes, let's do this. Then she confesses to me later on what, Gretchen?
Gretchen Yanover
Yeah, I had not done something like that before. It was just the bizarre convergence of timing that I happened to have an orchestra concert that, you know, paid decently enough that I couldn't miss it. So I had said, "Well, I would be losing this much money if I went," and I mean, so it wasn't like I was actually trying to negotiate but it was like a great happy accident that it happened. So and yes, then it was, I'll be getting my electric cello on a plane with. I've traveled with my acoustic cello before but yeah, it was unprecedented. And also because I had really not been doing my own music after the album, after my first album came out. So my first album came out. I can talk more about the circumstances around that later if you want. But it completely got me back on my feet as far as doing my own solo music with the looping ostinato sense. That was also an amazing, an amazing gift.
Drew Tweedy
What was the performance like that night?
Kate Purmal
Well, that's the thing I was gonna say. What was so remarkable about it is I'd never really spoken at length with Gretchen. I had no idea about her creative process. So when I asked her to play before she played, I said, "Look, I'd love you to talk about your music and how you," because she's a composer, right? So "How do you compose your music? Talk to us a little bit about how you play it and how you loop your cello," which she can tell us a little more about as well. And she was like, "Really?", and I was like, "No it'll be great. You can just talk to them." And she's like, "Okay." The audience was on the edge of their seat. They were transfixed by what she had to say. I do remember at one point you took us through phrasing; how you use words and phrases, and translate music and it was just this really extraordinary evening. It was really incredible.
Gretchen Yanover
Well, that was also an amazing gift to be encouraged to talk with my voice because I was very shy. And it has definitely over the years transformed me as a performer to be able to share my stories more comfortably with people. I don't know if I ever told you this, Kate, but do you know that the melody of "Suddenly I Felt Joy" corresponds to those syllables of suddenly I felt joy?
Kate Purmal
Yes, that's what you told us. That's what I was referring to. You told the group that and we were just, I think all our jaws were dropped. I also I know that the story behind "Suddenly I Felt Joy" is a really joyous story and it's related to the other story that you were going to tell about having a life you know, stop you in your tracks, and then an opportunity to get restarted again. Is that something you would like to talk about?
Gretchen Yanover
Sure. Yeah. After I completed the process of the recording of my first album, I had done all the studio work and all the tracks had been mixed and mastered, I had done a photo shoot for the cover. The completion of that album happened at the end of the summer of 2004. And then September 5, 2005 my brother died in a fire. There's just no preparation for that sort of sudden loss and grief. I became somewhat useless as far as actually getting the rest of the production of the album done. I was still putting one foot in front of the other with the help of my daughter's dad, who became my husband. Now he's not my husband anymore, but he was extremely supportive. He basically got the album produced, finished. He got a graphic designer to do the layout and got it sent to press and then he got it sent to radio stations like KDFC, that years ahead of the local Seattle classical station actually picked up the album. So John, my daughter's dad, he acted basically as my manager, and he just answered emails for me. Luckily, I actually got your email, Kate, personally. But the album, and the music took on somewhat of a life of its own, and I wasn't doing anything about it anymore, though. I didn't try to perform any more. I just thought like, "I'm done, I did that." I got married, I had a daughter, and my life was in that direction. It took me quite some time to get back on my feet. And it was from wonderful experiences of people reaching out like Kate, that motivated that to happen again. Yeah and so that particular song, "Suddenly I Felt Joy" was a quote of something that my brother said when he was little. My mom had shared a story about him jumping on the bed and making a ruckus. And so he had said, "suddenly, I felt joy." It fit right with the music, because I hadn't actually titled any of the pieces yet. So yeah, that was how that fit.
Drew Tweedy
How do you title a piece that doesn't have any words?
Gretchen Yanover
That is so difficult, and actually, I just had the honor of doing a three month artist residency with Town Hall Seattle, and one of the things that I explored was exactly that, about how, what I express with wordless music, and I'm currently exploring or looking more at poetry. Because there are poets who express things, you know, with few words. I ended up writing a piece recently that was a commissioned for Seattle Pacific University. I used a poem as inspiration and then used a line of poetry for inspiration. But it's a lot of me just meditating on often what it was that I was feeling when I wrote the piece. So it might be on my walks, and then just thinking through different word fragments, but that is one of the hardest things for me actually, coming up with titles.
Drew Tweedy
I bet. When I was listening to your music, I think your your titles really resonate with the feeling of the song. So it's cool to hear you say that, that's what inspires it. But I was struck by that when I was initially listening to your music, that a lot of the titles felt really appropriate for what the songs actually felt like. I was just thinking about how difficult that would be because there's no words. So that's really cool.
Kate Purmal
I was wondering, Gretchen, if you can just describe how you make your music?
Gretchen Yanover
Oh, yes. So I use this pedal that is fairly magical to a lot of people and some people are familiar with it. The technology has been around for quite a long time in different forms. But the pedal is a looping pedal. So basically, I can, with my cello hooked up to this pedal, I can record what I'm doing in the moment. I can tap that pedal and it will keep repeating on a loop and then I can actually add more layers to that if I want. I generally can't take something away once I've added it. But I can play with fading the volume of the entire thing. But often what I do is I create one or two or five layers of kind of a landscape. And then I play my melodies on top of that. So hopefully that makes sense.
Drew Tweedy
Totally, that's really cool. I didn't know exactly how you did that. Do you ever layer anything on top that's not your electric cello?
Gretchen Yanover
I have not. No, not yet.
Drew Tweedy
Cool. I think that makes it all the more impressive that it's only one instrument.
Kate Purmal
Other than in videos, I've noticed you've had dancers and you've had dancers choreographed to it, which isn't the same thing. But it has this added layer on top of it, which is really beautiful.
Gretchen Yanover
Yes, thank you.
Drew Tweedy
That's really cool. Thank you for sharing all of that. I wanted to loop back to something that you touched on a little bit earlier with your brother's passing in terms of the difficulties that you faced throughout your career and the path that you've sort of taken through music alongside those obstacles. Something that we talked about in our call to prepare for our recording session today is that it's really fascinating to me that every single time you go to work, you face these, what seem like massive obstacles to me. Number one, you're a solo performer with a really unique sound. So every time you get up there, it sounds to me, like you're trying something new, and you're showing your audience something that they've never heard before. Number two, on a personal identity level, you told us that when you do play with other people, you're the only black woman in the entire orchestra to which you belong. So on a general sense, you can select any sort of obstacle you want, if you want to go in that direction. But from a high level, how have you navigated the challenges of being the "only" in the room throughout your career? Because that concept of being the "only" is really core to the work that Kate and Lee and Joshua do with Composure. So I want to hear about, it's just a unique context that you bring to this discussion today, in the field that you work in.
Gretchen Yanover
Yeah, I think from the beginning of at least my playing music in sixth grade, age 10, I started out feeling like, not a complete "only", actually, because that was the experience of walking into a public, middle school classroom and having another girl who was the same color skin as me, which was the first person besides my sister, who at that point I met, was same color skin as me. I mean, yeah, my siblings, but like, we're biracial. We were sitting together and made that decision to play cello together. And part of it was, I don't want to play violin, everyone else wants to play violin. I don't want to be like everyone else. I already know I'm not like everyone else. But then this other girl and I, you know, it's like, well, let's do something different together. So that was actually a moment of that first feeling of affinity, I think but also, you know, choosing an instrument that was not the one that everyone was choosing. And I think in classical music, in my schooling, where I was somebody who took the honors route, I was so used to being the only brown person that it didn't occur to me...I can't say it didn't occur to me to question it. But I think one becomes so accustomed to being the only that it just doesn't feel like the forefront of where I was putting my energy to do anything about it. I mean, really, these last few years, couple of years, have been pretty amazing for people having this reckoning around race in this country and really shining the light on it. I'm so sorry, I've jumped through decades since I'm 49 years old. But in my orchestra, which I've been in for a little over 20 years, again, it was not unusual to be the only black person in classical music. There's not a lot of representation going on there. Being a woman, not so much of an issue like as far as not feeling affinity. In my orchestra, I think we're probably two-thirds female. Although, in the 30 year history of this particular orchestra, this season is the first time we are going to have a female guest conductor. So we've always been led by male conductors. So that is also a somewhat interesting dynamic. But it now feels like this moment of opportunity. Because there's so much light being shined on this issue. Our orchestra created DEI Task Force, and I was, of course asked to be on the task force. But I'm happy to be in the position where I can, I can put energy into that, and also with colleagues who are truly dedicated to it, not just paying lip service and making a statement and then not doing anything about it. Also the strange thing of the pandemic and everyone going inside and connecting over Zoom or however online was that, I was actually able to connect with so many more black musicians from the region and around the country. Because we could meet in a virtual space. So I just touched on some of these different things. But I hope I somewhat addressed what you're talking about.
Drew Tweedy
Yeah, definitely.
Kate Purmal
Yeah, you did. Also you said to us as we were prepping for this, it's not just that you're a woman or a black woman in classical music, but your music also straddles this strange line where it's not quite fully raised in the classical world. So tell us about that.
Gretchen Yanover
Thank you for reminding me about that aspect of things. Yes. So that was also playing, starting to play my own electric cello music, which grew out of my forays into playing indie rock music when I was in college and playing in bands, but then creating this other music, which I didn't know what to call it. I actually kept it kind of a secret from my classical music colleagues. So like, they didn't even know when I'd made my first album.
Drew Tweedy
You didn't tell any of them?
Gretchen Yanover
No. I felt it was this kind of, I don't know what the right word, I don't want to say shame. But just like thinking like, this isn't really legitimate, what I'm doing and so I was worried about how they would judge me. And again, it's something that took years. It was from this growth of these other you know, classical stations, not in Seattle, actually accepting my music as classical but, but only relatively recently, in these last few years where I should say, my orchestra, I did kind of come out to my orchestra. At some point here, Cisco, and the previous—the founding conductor, and then one of our principal artistic partners who is actually a cellist and does like my music gave me an amazing opportunity to perform solo on my electric cello with the orchestra and create music for our orchestra program, which was again, just totally amazing. Yeah, but it took me a long time to feel like, okay, I can do this and just relatively recently, in these last couple of years for our classical station here in Seattle, King FM, to add my music, to their playlists. For me it's like this legitimacy thing of just feeling like in my own hometown, which is, I guess, a kind of a big hometown now, but that I have received the sort of acknowledgement and even that there's a genre name now, neo-classical, that helps encompass my music, which could also be called "minimalism" in a way because of the looping ostinato aspect of it. But yes, it's been a journey.
Kate Purmal
You know, Gretchen, one of the things I know about you as an artist is that like many artists, independent artists, you basically are an entrepreneur. You are basically in the business of booking yourself and marketing yourself and producing your work and albums and that whole thing so you really are running a little business of Gretchen. And, I'm curious how you maintain your creative spark and creative energy while also having to do all those other things that are practical business things. A lot of our listeners have that challenge in their work life. So it would be interesting to hear how you manage that.
Gretchen Yanover
Right. I mean, I think luckily, I am somebody who I think has kind of a, enough of a practical outlook to begin with that I would not actually have made the leap to going toward being a full-time performer if I didn't feel like I was somebody who, you know, was frugal and could manage my money. And I had a 17-year career as a school teacher before I totally transitioned to full-time performing. But I think that's a funny question about maintaining the creativity. What I was going to say is having projects where I agree to do something like a composition commission, or some kind of performance, that's so low that instead of being afraid, that I won't be able to produce, it's like, actually, just the more I do it, the more I see I'm able to find places to keep my creativity. Like for one thing, but just like getting paid to do a residency, it's like, well, it's just sitting down and doing it. It's just, you know, if somebody is supporting me financially, to be able to sit at my cello for hours, and just keep creating or, you know, funds me to write a piece, then it's just the sitting and doing. So in a way, I mean, I have an experience... maybe like a writer's block. But I think it's almost the... I meet more musicians who seem like they have trouble with the practical part. It sounds like maybe people you work with have trouble allowing themselves on the creative part.
Kate Purmal
That's what I was thinking, I was thinking it's so funny because you view your job as being creative. With your job the stuff that you have to do and fit in somewhere and find time for. The people we work with view their job as their job, and their desire to be creative. Not that they don't integrate creativity in their work, but to have a personal creative spirit that they nurture and grow. That seems totally separate to them. So sticking to this concept of flipping it on its head, what would it be like if it were your job to be creative? And your second job? Drew, we've talked about that with you before.
Drew Tweedy
It's an amazing perspective shift. I'm listening to this, like, wow, how different my anxiety levels would be. And my creative spirit. That's amazing.
Kate Purmal
Yeah, I thought you might resonate with that.
Drew Tweedy
I see. Yeah. Gretchen to me, I hear along those lines. To me, I hear when you're talking about getting a residency and being financially compensated for a project that you haven't done yet. That sounds like a lot of pressure to me and it doesn't sound like that's necessarily the way that you experience it, correct me if I'm wrong. But how does that feel for you when you get selected or accepted for a residency and you have that expectation of producing something at the end?
Gretchen Yanover
I think I do have a certain amount of anxiety about it. But that means that I just start working right away. It's not like I'm just going to put it off. So again, some of these things are more relatively new experiences in my life. But for instance, the last composition commissions I did, I sat with the professor's deadlines that were months out, and then I would just start working right away. And within several weeks, rather than months, it was like, oh, okay, I actually think I've come to the point where I have more of a finished composition than I think and maybe that's part of it, too. It's just giving myself a bit of cushion of time, but then starting working on it right away. So I think it's pressure but it's a good pressure.
Drew Tweedy
Yeah, it sounds like you lessen the pressure on yourself by not procrastinating. It's a novel thought.
Kate Purmal
Most of the people we work with are struggling with things or procrastinating. So you know, Gretchen, I'm really curious about something, which is that I'm curious about what it means to be sort of in flow. You know we work with a lot of our clients to move into a place where they're finding joy, and they're finding ease in their work, and serendipity is happening around them and they're really stepping into purpose and meaning and, you know, sort of trying to get out of the feeling of being in the noise in the mess of it, and as much as possible elevate up. I'm just curious about how that works for you. Because I would imagine there's some element of flow that's required for you to do the kind of work that you do.
Gretchen Yanover
Yeah, well I mean, actually when I reflect on, you know, I'm talking about some of these things from the other side of them. From now I've completed that, or I've performed it. And when I'm in the midst of it, sometimes for me, that means I have to step back from a lot of other things. Like, I am not listening to music for fun, because I need to keep my own music in my head. And I'm not even socializing as much because I, like even if I'm taking a walk, I'm working out stuff in my head on music. Then I try to make sure I find those moments where I can be in the moment, say with my daughter. So it's like, I will get my work done and have it be quiet, or you know, quiet so that I'm doing my own music when she's at school, or when she's at her dad's. So that then when she's back in the house with me, she can be the DJ, and she can listen to music, and she can talk to me. So that I'm not having to shut down when I'm around being mom. But I don't know if the way I'm compartmentalizing is ideal for everyone. But that's sort of how I've been doing that for now, if that makes sense.
Kate Purmal
You know, I'm hearing something in there that I think is really interesting, which probably seems normal for you. But when you're retreating like that, I'm just going to use the word "retreating", you're saying no to a lot of things that get in your way, which is really interesting. That's very difficult for many of the people we work with, and many of our listeners to do. To really be clear about their boundary of when they need space, and they can't afford to take on social engagements or family obligations, or whatever that is. Obviously your daughter's different. That's so interesting. So is that just part and parcel of being a composer and a musician? You think? Or is that something you've developed and learned?
Gretchen Yanover
That is... I don't know. I mean I feel like I have to talk to other composers, in a way, to find out, like, I just know my process. But I mean, and I know, well, that's not true. I mean, I guess I do know some other composers who don't work the same way I do, who can just keep listening to tons of other things. And the way that they're approaching music is more maybe intellectual or theoretical. And for me, it's like, I'm spending a lot of time in this emotional space and I can't put something else in there. So I guess I can only speak for myself on this one, as far as how I'm doing that.
Well, I think it's a beautiful model and something that you know, for those of us struggling to find quiet and a place to be able to think, what I call "white space". Struggling with giving ourselves permission to find white space. We can take inspiration from the ease with which you give yourself. I'm sure it's required for the work that you do. But so is it for the work that most people do. And so I think that's really inspiring.
Drew Tweedy
Yeah, something that really jumped out to me when you were talking about that was that it's almost like a part of your preparation to have boundaries. Like, the way that you prepare to do your work is to set your boundaries, to start saying no, either to yourself or to other people, right, if you're socializing or listening to music on your own, or whatever it might be. It reminded me of the saying that "luck is when opportunity meets preparation". But for you, it's like "flow is when opportunity meets preparation", and that's just like, it's really cool. You're dropping so much wisdom today.
Kate Purmal
Well, I was just gonna ask about your view of yourself as a leader or role model in by virtue of who you are and what you do? How do you carry that? How do you bring that to the world?
Gretchen Yanover
Yeah. Well, I hope I keep having, or creating more opportunities for that, as far as putting myself out in the world. I've had some really fun jobs in the past where one of them was playing at SeaTac Airport and just being out in the world where people can see, "Oh, there's this brown woman doing this thing that I did not even know what that instrument is". But having so many different people from different backgrounds, who I mean, in that particular situation, the Port of Seattle, I mean, the amazing hive of people it takes to run an airport, in addition to all the travelers. A lot of people I could be, I could be in the public eye in a way that was nice. All my years of school teaching, of course, also put me in front of students who could then in some cases, see themselves reflected in me. I am in the process of applying for a grant through City of Seattle, that, I hope would enable me to put on some more free public concerts. But I do think that there's a few aspects of being a role model. One for brown kids, people, for women, especially, and as a soloist. So, I do feel like I often hear and I'm sure you know all about this, particularly seems to happen for females saying, "I'm just not ready, I don't know if I'm ready, or I need support before I venture out to do this thing." I do feel like I have been able to say like, "Just go ahead and do this thing." And actually, I, you know, don't maybe need somebody backing you. You can step out on your own. Actually, just today, I got an email from a former student of mine from probably around at least 20 years ago, who said she has loved classical music ever since I was her teacher. She's another brown woman, and she's getting married. And she wanted me to play for her wedding, which is so sweet. And it just feels like okay, over the years, I do know that I have impacts that I don't even, I don't see in the moment. But people reach out and share, which is amazing. So I think just all the different ways that I can keep being in the world where like my orchestra has actually been amazing, Northwest Sinfonietta, about illuminating my work as a soloist and creating videos and doing other things to feature me and other arts organizations in the area. So I think that sort of answers that question.
Drew Tweedy
Are you going to play the wedding?
Gretchen Yanover
Oh, I would love to, I told her that I want to. I don't know when it is. And I would love to.
Drew Tweedy
That would be a beautiful way of reconnecting sort of, hopefully, fingers crossed post-COVID.
Gretchen Yanover
Yes, yes.
Drew Tweedy
That's a great segway, actually into the last question that I want to ask you. And I actually want to ask you both this. Gretchen, you've talked about being a teacher, which I love. I'm biased. But in my own experience with teaching, I've been just like always attracted to talking to people who have taught and curious about the lessons that they bring with them into the classroom. And you touched on that a little bit about being a role model. But something that I found really interesting when we were talking about this, in our prep call, was you talked about the lack of space for improv and improvisation that you had in your own education. And why you think it's so important to make space for that, for other students, and other young people, whether it's in music, or elsewhere. So I want to put it to you both and we'll start with Gretchen. Why is it so important for you to communicate the need for improv to younger people, anybody you're mentoring your students, whoever it may be, in music? Then to Kate, why has that been really important in your work as well?
Gretchen Yanover
Well, for me, so a couple reasons why I think it's so important. For one thing, there's different ways to approach improvisation but one way with my students who were younger, you know, I do often things with middle schoolers. I taught middle school and high school mostly. But to be able to maybe take this language, take these notes, and choose some and break them down and make them into something different. It's a way to say you can take this language and you can actually sort of dual problem solve and express through...almost to empower yourself with the notes, like with this language one has learned. So I guess that dual aspect, because that's also a way to make it fun to do something. Maybe that would be just repetitive with that language, with that music, and make it one's own. So I think it's, it slows things down, in a way as a teacher to allow for sure as to allow time to make space for that. But it's also that, especially for some students, I think that's the moment where they get the spark, when they realize, wait a minute. I don't have to just do what what's written, I mean it would be amazing, right? If we taught English, but somebody only could ever speak something that was written down and not make one's own sentences. It's kind of crazy, right? So it was definitely an important aspect. I have no faulting of my teachers at the time, you know, in the 1980s, who were, you know, just doing school music the way it had been done. But I knew I did want to do things differently. And yeah, so there, there it is.
Drew Tweedy
That's great. Thank you for sharing that. Kate, what about you?
Kate Purmal
You know, there are so many levels to that question. When I think about improv in business. Improv is often taught in business as a way to improve upon your ability to be creative and/or engage with others in a way that's more productive, right, that's more effective, that's more creates better outcomes. So what's interesting, in particular about women in business, is that women tend to take, we've talked about this in other podcasts, circuitous career paths that are very different than men's. So there's a lot of need to contextualize the path you take. And it's unique, it's incredibly unique. To be able to help people understand how you got from point A to point Z, or point X, and how that halfway you took that doesn't look like the path most people take is important and valuable in terms of your contribution and what you're doing. I think this idea of improv, and the idea of that having unique value, and that being a unique expression, is really what I think about when I think about improv. I also think that I equate improv with experimentation. One of the things that we do a lot with our clients is we encourage them to do experiments with things because an experiment doesn't have to be a success. A successful outcome is a success or a failure, or something in between. It's about trying, and learning, and adapting, and trying and learning and adapting, which I think has a lot to do with the improv process works. That is one of the most valuable things we can do because particularly for people who are afraid of failure, or they're afraid of rejection, it's a way to put that out there and state right up front, we're going for the fail, we're going for the win, we're just going to see what happens. Actually, that's really what being entrepreneurial and being creative in business is about. It's about taking creative risks and seeing what happens and course correcting so you can get there. So it just seems to me like it's just a really important and fundamental thing and a huge relief when people can think about trying things and failing without consequence.
Drew Tweedy
Make space for joy too, right?
Kate Purmal
Well, that's what I was gonna ask Gretchen as my last question. Tell us about joy. What brings you the most joy in your life and how does that impact, how does having that joy impact your work and your music and your creativity?
Drew Tweedy
I love that question. Thank you for asking that. Gretchen, please answer.
Gretchen Yanover
Okay. And I do want to make sure I'm understanding you're saying what brings joy, not necessarily through my music-making but just joy. Oh so many things actually. Maybe that is, I am maybe fortunate in my general mindset that taking a walk and hearing the birds and smelling the Daphne that's coming out. Oh, I miss tango dancing, but tango dancing, when I can do that brings joy, and my daughter brings joy, and oh my gosh, actually creating music that is beautiful and comforting. That brings joy too. I think I only got to the half of the question, but a lot of things bring me joy.
Kate Purmal
I love that. You're very poetic. It's no wonder you have that poetic sense in your music. Beautiful. The other half the question is, how does experiencing joy impact your creativity?
Gretchen Yanover
Well, I think it is very important for me to make sure that I allow myself time to find joy. Like I basically just went through this with this residency where I wanted to create some of the music that I've been putting off because it's emotionally painful. I did not want to go and do that music, even though I felt like it was very important to express some of the things that are those aspects of life to express. But I made sure if I was going to do that, I was going to make at least equal time to write music that was expressing joy. So now I still don't know if I answered the question. I think it informs my music making because I'm trying to find the balanced path.
Kate Purmal
I love that. Well, that's beautiful.
Drew Tweedy
I think that question is the perfect way to close this episode. And maybe should be the question that we asked at the end of every episode.
Kate Purmal
I was thinking that too, because after that, what do we play?
Drew Tweedy
It's coming to your earbuds in about 15 seconds.
Gretchen Yanover
Thanks so much for talking with me.
Drew Tweedy
Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been an absolute joy to have you on.
And that's the show. If you enjoyed it, there are a few ways you can help us out or shape our future episodes. You can rate the podcast on whichever player you're listening on now, or send this episode someone you think might enjoy it. Or you can let us know who you think we should have on the show next. We always love hearing from listeners. So please do reach out by emailing us at support@composurethebook.com. The Composure Podcast accompanies the new book, Composure: The Art of Executive Presence, written by Kate Purmal, along with co-authors, Lee Epting and Joshua Isaac Smith. Learn more at composurethe book.com. A special thank you to Gretchen Yanover for creating the beautiful music you hear on the show.
Lee Epting
Hey, it's Lee. People often asked me what the most fulfilling part of my work is. And the answer is actually really simple. It's seeing all of you taking your composure out into the world and using it to make the world a better and more equitable place. And that's the true power of composure. People who find it don't just elevate themselves. They elevate everyone around them too. If you'd like to learn more about how to cultivate your composure, visit composurethebook.com.
